宇文所安著，贾晋华等译《晚唐——九世纪中叶的中国诗歌》读书随札（赐教者，个人有

陶梦

   本帖所评分，暂时挪用公款，待本书读完，再统计返还。

  《晚唐》一书，先获英文原版，无奈时间有限，外文水平不高，庋藏箧中，几至遗忘。









  幸得同学告知，万象书店于多日前已经开始发售中文版，译者贾晋华、钱彦二先生。



  钱先生为谁，不得而知，恕我寡闻；贾先生是古代文学研究学者，陶梦略知一二，内行人译内行书，想必不差。更何况中译本为三联书店所出，质量当有一定之保证。

  昨晚买来，旋及展卷拜读。偶有疑惑，又幸得原版相助，入屠门而大嚼，不惟快意而已。遂决意将所思所感，随札于此，若得方家解惑指教，幸甚！


晚唐 九世纪中叶的中国诗歌（827-860）

【作 者】宇文所安著 【出版商】 北京市：生活·读书·新知三联书店 , 2010.12 【ISBN号】978-7-108-03570-7 【中图法分类号】I207.22 【丛书名】宇文所安作品系列 【原书定价】42.00
【参考文献格式】宇文所安著. 晚唐 九世纪中叶的中国诗歌（827-860）. 北京市：生活·读书·新知三联书店, 2010.12.

【内容提要】 本书对晚唐诗的风格、形式和意蕴的变化有独到的阐释，对杜牧、李商隐和温庭筠的诗歌有不同于前人的精审解读。而且基于在中唐余韵影响下晚唐独特的社会文化状况和历史地位，作者在本书中有不同于前三部的对文学史的新叙述，如更加注意文本是如何保存下来和如何在当时流传的，诗的写作与在当代的流传之间的关系如何，还有当时的诗歌与盛唐诗歌之间、与元代诗歌之间有怎样的关联等等。

读秀试读
http://book1.duxiu.com/bookDetail.jsp?dxNumber=000008046212&d=299DF2D73FA226FA6303D206A43BD193&fenlei=0903030103&sw=%D3%EE%CE%C4%CB%F9%B0%B2+%CD%ED%CC%C6

陶梦

  中文版（后帖以1代之）P7：在这三位诗人当中，李商隐和温庭筠的诗歌成就在有生之年都未获得普遍承认。杜牧虽然闻名于世，但他与当时很多诗人齐名，而那些诗人现在大多已不为人知。

  英文版（后帖以2代之）P7：Of those three Li Shangyin and Wen Tingyun went largely unrecognized as poets in their own lifetimes; and Du Mu, though prominent, shared the stage with many other poets whose names have largely been forgotten.

陶梦谨案：
  总觉得这种译法不“雅”，是否有更好的译法呢？


  1P7-8：下引子兰的诗中，伟大的京城长安的厄运已经注定。有关僧人子兰的生平，我们几乎无一所知，只知道他在唐朝的最后时期还在做诗。此诗前两句可能撰于任何时候，但后两句所唤起的不可能是长安的其他时刻。
  2P7: Chang'an, the great city, was doomed. We know virtually nothing about the monk called Zilan 子蘭 except that he was writing at the end. The first couplet of the follwing poem would have been written at any time, wheareas the second evokes a moment like no other in Chang'an.

  案：第一句和第二句的部分（at the end），译语堪疑。第三句或许就是鲁迅先生所说的“硬译”。其所欲表达的，是否是这种意思呢——单从下引诗歌的前两句看，我们难以确定其写作时间；但是后两句却不一样，诗中所描写的并不是平常时期的长安。。


  1p8:我们无法确定下面这首诗是否与上一首诗作于同时，但很难不将它作为季节的续篇来阅读。
  2P8：We cannot date with any certainty the following poem in relation to the preceding one, but it is hard not to read it in seasonal sequence.

  案：我们无法确定下面这首诗与上引诗篇的关系，然而我们难以抗拒地按照诗中反映出的季节顺序来展开阅读。

陶梦

  1p8：但是长安城未陷之前，当马群还在奔走，士兵还在被募集去保卫这座城市时，那些宴会上所写的诗篇，可能与我们将要读到的诗篇很相像。
  1P8：Yet the poems written at those parties before the fall-while the horses were galloping outside conscripting men for the defense of the city-wre probably very much like the ones we will read here.

  案：“硬译”。“将要读到的诗篇”那是美语中的语法形式，而不是形式之中所蕴含的真正意思。后一句应该翻译为：“那些宴会上所写的诗篇，可能与我们读到的这篇很相像”。

  1P9：虽然九世纪第二个二十五年的诗歌丰富多样，不允许我们只用单一的总体特征来概括，但我们的确看到新的价值观和兴趣的兴起。
  2P9:Although the diversity of the poetry between thd mid-820s and 860 permits no single overall characterization, we do see new values and interests emerging.

  案：为什么要翻译成“第二个二十五年”呢？难道这里面有行规？不讲究。

gidiok

这里有篇书评：

www.litphil.sinica.edu.tw/home/p ... n/35/35-189-218.pdf

陶梦

1P10：很少有诗人像白居易和贾岛那样截然不同，但我们发现两人都筹划以手稿的物质形式积累自己的诗歌作品。在八世纪第二个十年，元稹已经致力于整理自己的几个文集，白居易紧随其后，编集了数部手稿，并不断更新和补充。到九世纪中叶，整理编辑自己的诗歌已广为开展，同时还产生了未收入作者主集的、专收特定题材的小集。
2P10：（Absorption was a way of excluding the larger world, of looking inward and isolating a particular object or domain. Figures of absorption paly an important role in the representations of poets and poetry during this period. We witness a growing sense of poetry as a separete sphere of activity, demanding absolute commitment, with the "poet" as a distinct type. Poetry continued to flourish as a shared practice among a wide cross-section of the Tang elite, but we find groups who celebrated their devotion to poetry as a vocation, matched by a growing contempt for "poets" by some in court cricle. As poetry became a seperate sphere of commitment, like the vocation of a Buddhist monk, poets began to think of their poetry in terms of an accumulation, a "legacy", based on the model of amassing land and goods or the "merit" accumulated over a lifetime of official service or Buddhist practice.）Few poets are as different as Bai Juyi and Jia Dao, but in both we find scenes involving contemplation of their own accumulated poetic production in the form of physical manuscripts. Already in the 810s Yuan Zhen was working on preparing versions of his literary collection, followed by Bai Juyi, who produced multiple manuscript copies with ongoing updated editions and supplements. By mid-century editing one's own poetry had become widespread, along with the production of subcollections of poems on special topics that might not be included in an author's main collection.

案：哈哈。对于第一句，我无语了。the 810s能否翻译为“八世纪第二个十年”，我真的不懂了。
   且看另外一句的翻译——
  1P15：正如我们前面已提到，合理地说，始于九世纪二十年代的晚唐诗歌是对元和那一
代正当盛名的诗人的反叛。
  2P14：It is fair to say, as we have stated above, that the Late Tang begins in the 820s in reaction to the now famous poets of the Yuanhe generation.

   请英语高手帮助俺解惑，这里的BUT是什么意思？
   第一句或可以这样翻译——
   绝大多数诗人都像白居易和贾岛一样，只是他们两人更为沉迷，都以抄本的形式收集自己的诗歌作品。

woi55

引用第0楼陶梦于2011-03-28 15:09发表的 宇文所安著，贾晋华，钱彦译《晚唐——九世纪中叶的中国诗歌》读书随札 :
内行人译内行书，想必不差。更何况中译本为三联书店所出，质量当有一定之保证。
.......

这么希望，恐怕您会失望。

woi55

[quote]引用第4楼陶梦于2011-03-28 17:44发表的 :
1P10：很少有诗人像白居易和贾岛那样截然不同，但我们发现两人都筹划以手稿的物质形式积累自己的诗歌作品。
2P10：Few poets are as different as Bai Juyi and Jia Dao, but in both we find scenes involving contemplation of their own accumulated poetic production in the form of physical manuscripts.

案：哈哈。我无语了。

白马西北驰

Few poets are as different as Bai Juyi and Jia Dao, but in both we find scenes involving contemplation of their own accumulated poetic production in the form of physical manuscripts
很少有诗人像白居易和贾岛那样截然不同，但我们发现两人都筹划以手稿的物质形式积累自己的诗歌作品。


试着整理一下：
【前半句没有什么问题】，但是，我们发现两人都有一些（相似的）情形，涉及到对他们自己日益累积起来的手稿形式的诗歌作品的考虑。

或者：

......，涉及到对他们自己以手稿形式日益积累起来的诗歌作品的考虑。


要害的地方在于：诗人们都不满意仅仅留着一大堆手稿了，要考虑如何出版的问题了。因为前文的意思隐然是说诗人已经成为一种独立的职业。

cicerocicero

扮古以配时远，擅出文外以图意彰。句一慰陶梦之雅求，句二解原译之磕绊。噫！吾得玩票兮！

Of those three Li Shangyin and Wen Tingyun went largely unrecognized as poets in their own lifetimes; and Du Mu, though prominent, shared the stage with many other poets whose names have largely been forgotten.
此三人中，惜李商隐、温庭筠有生之年几未得享诗人之名，尤悲乎杜牧，名则名也，奈何却侪身江鲫之流。

Few poets are as different as Bai Juyi and Jia Dao, but in both we find scenes involving contemplation of their own accumulated poetic production in the form of physical manuscripts.
白（居易）贾（岛）之别，诗人中可逮者鲜，心伤诗作仅得案陈，二人却无殊致。

陶梦

  1P10：我们看到不同修辞层次间的差异和冲突不断增加，同时看到反对白居易所提倡的下层修辞的评语。在这种修辞层次的对立中，我们第一次窥视到一种“诗意的”或“古典的”感觉，这对后来的文学文化有深远的影响，无论是将“古典”作为标准来遵循或谴责其矫揉造作。此前只有具备各种修辞层次的“诗歌”，一首诗中往往自始至终使用同一种修辞层次。混合修辞层次的诗篇使得“高”和“低”之间的对照更为明显。

  2P10：We see a growing divergence and tension between registers, along with disapproving comments on the low register that was championed by Bai Juyi. In this opposition of registers we first glimpse a sense of the "poetic" or "classical",which would have profound consequences in later literary culture, whether the "classical" was held up as a standard to be followed or condemned as artificial. Earlier there had simply been "poetry" with a wide range of registers, one of which was usually used consistently in a poem; mixed-register poetry heightened the contrast between "high" and "low".

  案：无论怎么说，白居易的“下层修辞”是费思量的。
  感谢wio兄的热心且耐心的指点。“register”有“修辞”的涵义，但将“low register”翻译为“下层修辞”实在有些不妥。不了解白居易诗学主张和诗歌特色的人，如偶，常常会将此“修辞”与常见的“修辞”联系起来。
  另外，wio兄还告诉我，“literary culture”或可以翻译为“文学风尚”、“文学理念”。觉得比译者硬译成“文学文化”要接近愿意一些。

woi55

[quote]引用第7楼白马西北驰于2011-03-28 19:16发表的

woi55

引用第8楼cicerocicero于2011-03-28 20:48发表的 :
Of those three Li Shangyin and Wen Tingyun went largely unrecognized as poets in their own lifetimes; and Du Mu, though prominent, shared the stage with many other poets whose names have largely been forgotten.
此三人中，惜李商隐、温庭筠有生之年几未得享诗人之名，尤悲乎杜牧，名则名也，奈何却侪身江鲫之流。

Few poets are as different as Bai Juyi and Jia Dao, but in both we find scenes involving contemplation of their own accumulated poetic production in the form of physical manuscripts.
白（居易）贾（岛）之别，诗人中可逮者鲜，心伤诗作仅得案陈，二人却无殊致。

.......

惜、尤、悲、奈何，不知从何而来？
心伤、案陈，更是令人不解。想是contemplation看成disconsolation了？

cicerocicero

呵呵，戏玩，woi兄认真了。

第一句字里行间不难感觉宇文隐含的慨叹，两分句同在largely上做文章，largely unrecongnized对largely forgotten，味道丰满呢，写杜牧那句很绝，若有续貂之句，该是“如此之名，不出也罢”吧？奈何，奈何！

心中知道这不是翻译是解意了，所以先行告罪：“擅出文外以图意彰”；

第二句倒可多说说。

“案陈”来自对physical的理解。这点上，我的看法同白马兄相似。

从诗稿散片到结集汇编，都可说是physical范畴，但有形还不够，要“有型”，才有顺眼的成就感，才有流传至未来的可能。

这里是宇文先生在点出，因为诗人的行业/职业化的萌芽，进而有了自我彰显的欲求，而此欲求的外在表现，（按照今天的用词）就是所谓“变成铅字”并进而“著作等身”了，而非置于案几上的散片或仅仅民间的口碑相传。

再明白点，就是要make their poetry come up as a systematic entity

“心伤”故意夸张了contemplation，由沉思、思考放大到所思、所望，寤寐思服，故而心伤。

呵呵，戏说在先，正答在后，也算是补胡乱造次之过，woi兄恕罪

woi55

引用第12楼cicerocicero于2011-03-29 00:43发表的 :
呵呵，戏玩，woi兄认真了。

第一句字里行间不难感觉宇文隐含的慨叹，两分句同在largely上做文章，largely unrecongnized对largely forgotten，味道丰满呢，写杜牧那句很绝，若有续貂之句，该是“如此之名，不出也罢”吧？奈何，奈何！

心中知道这不是翻译是解意了，所以先行告罪：“擅出文外以图意彰”；
.......

西塞罗老师过谦了。是俺漏看了您的事先声明，抱歉。

关于第二句，还得跟您商榷：按照您的意思，这一段里面两个manuscript，哪个是诗稿散片，哪个是结集汇编？

cicerocicero

对于整段，只梳理了一下语境，没特别关注这个词。

您提醒之下，再读了一遍，文段在所谈及那句之后说，元稹做的是version、collection工作，白居易做的是manuscript及其后续，可见，这里两人实际都在做朝向systematic entity的事情，不过前者走在前头。紧接的后句是讲时代大势是这项工作日趋盛行。

所以，这段里的两个manuscript，与白居易——也是前句contemplate动作发出者（之一）——相关的两个manuscript，没法截然说得明白哪个是散片，哪个是结集，因为都还算是未最终成“型”，尤其是与元稹所做的（参上述用词）相互对比而言更是如此，不过，就此两个manuscript而言，第一个相比更多属于初级形态，第二个更为成熟，已经是深加工状态了。

p.s.我重新编辑下，把第二段中的代词换成名词，免得影响您理解我的意思。

woi55

[quote]引用第14楼cicerocicero于2011-03-29 01:42发表的

陶梦

1P16：在他的选集中我们再次看到对五言律诗的注重，大历时代的同一批诗人占据主导地位，加上一些继承保守传统的元和诗人。
  2P15：In his anthology we again see a focus on regulated verse in the short line and the predominance of the same poets from the Dali era, along with some Yuanhe poets in that conservative tradition.

    案：在他的选集中我们看到，时人对五言诗仍然重视，大历时代的那批诗人和继承保守传统的元和诗人仍然占据主导地位。

白马西北驰

引用第10楼woi55于2011-03-28 23:29发表的 :

感觉诗人并没有对仅仅留着一大堆手稿“不满”，而是开始整体审视自己的诗作积累。
然而诗人的作品以前可能只是零星口头流传的，无形的，难以看到“积累”的成果；因此现在诗人开始整理出有形的（physical）手稿集以体现这种“积累”并加以审视了。

Few poets are as different as Bai Juyi and Jia Dao, but in both we find scenes involving contemplation of their own accumulated poetic production in the form of physical manuscripts

感觉要表达你所说的意思，这句话说成这样可能更合理些：

Few poets are as different as Bai Juyi and Jia Dao, but in both we find scenes involving contemplation of accumulating their own poetic production in the form of physical manuscripts

既然原文用过去分词，就说明这种手稿的积累是既成事实，而不是有意为之：手稿已经积累下来了，现在要考虑的是编辑、整理的问题。

我还是觉得编手稿集这种事是为了“发表”或“出版”（不是现代意义上的），以广流传。

陶梦

  1P16-17：从一个角度来看，与其划分“中唐”和“晚唐”，不如划分三代诗人：大历一代，元和一代，以及九世纪第二个二十五年那一代。从另一个角度来看，存在着一个连贯的“诗歌”传统，而“元和体”只是较小的一群诗人所创造的一种迷人而常受责备的异常现象。后一角度似乎最接近九世纪第二个二十五年的律诗大师们对诗歌传统的认识。对他们来说，上世纪并不是诗歌的“历史”。他们只确认一种时代风格，即“元和体”，除此之外则存在着一种持久的古典风格。

  2P15-16：From one perspective, rather than "Mid-Tang" and "Late Tang",we have here there generations: the Dali generation, the Yuanhe generation, and the generation of the second quarter of the minth century. From another perspective, there was one continuous "poetry", with the "Yuanhe style" as a fascinating and often disapproved aberration produced by a narrow community of writers. This latter perspective seems closest to the way the regulated-verse masters of the second quarter of the ninth century conceived the poetic past. For them the preceding century was not a "history" of poetry. They identified only one period style, the "Yuanhe style"; aside from that there was an enduring classical style.

  案：研究本来应该如此着眼，如此着手，然而现实中的研究往往执其一端而不及其余，最终忘记了“其余”，于是，需要外来的“和尚”才能念好这个经。可惜。但有时想一想，除了古典文学研究，其他的一些事情，又何尝不是如此呢？诚所谓数典忘祖。

woi55

引用第17楼白马西北驰于2011-03-29 13:30发表的 :
Few poets are as different as Bai Juyi and Jia Dao, but in both we find scenes involving contemplation of their own accumulated poetic production in the form of physical manuscripts

感觉要表达你所说的意思，这句话说成这样可能更合理些：

Few poets are as different as Bai Juyi and Jia Dao, but in both we find scenes involving contemplation of accumulating their own poetic production in the form of physical manuscripts

既然原文用过去分词，就说明这种手稿的积累是既成事实，而不是有意为之：手稿已经积累下来了，现在要考虑的是编辑、整理的问题。

我还是觉得编手稿集这种事是为了“发表”或“出版”（不是现代意义上的），以广流传。
.......

您说的对，积累已是事实，但accumulated修饰的是production，未必就是manuscript这种form。

早上向陶梦兄请益后，更坚定我的想法：此处的manuscript，不是“手稿”，而是“抄本”；结合当时的历史阶段（现存最早雕版印刷书《金刚经》成于868年），其实就是“书”的意思，也就是当时的“出版物”。

因为之前诗人写诗，没有为自己的诗作单独出书的。现在开始考虑结集“出版”，整体审视自己的历年诗作。